Hi there,

Yes i know you are supposed to convert your ANS file to MSG using the ans2asc utility. Thats ok. It works. I do that.
But if you add @Codes to your ANS file, you will quickly lose how the layout will look like eventually. Or you will end up using a text editor afterwards, editing the ANS/MSG file to move stuff around and look at the result, repeat that until the layout looks the way it is supposed to look.

Currently i am using Moebius for Linux to edit the ANS files. There is IcyDraw, wich can handle MSG files directly (i guess), but it always is no WYSIWYG editing as soon as you want to use @Codes, but guessing, measuring, textediting afterwards.

Is there a better way? A way to edit Ansi's WYSIWYG with @Codes included?

Example: head.msg/head.ans IcyDraw/Moebius https://imgur.com/a/T9anJRs

Mindsurfer

---
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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Mindsurfer to All on Tue Oct 21 2025 12:04 pm

Hi there,

Yes i know you are supposed to convert your ANS file to MSG using the ans2asc utility. Thats ok. It works. I do that.
But if you add @Codes to your ANS file, you will quickly lose how the layout will look like eventually. Or you will end up using a text editor afterwards, editing the ANS/MSG file to move stuff around and look at the result, repeat that until the layout looks the way it is supposed to look.

Currently i am using Moebius for Linux to edit the ANS files. There is IcyDraw, wich can handle MSG files directly (i guess), but it always is no WYSIWYG editing as soon as you want to use @Codes, but guessing, measuring, textediting afterwards.

Is there a better way? A way to edit Ansi's WYSIWYG with @Codes included?

Example: head.msg/head.ans IcyDraw/Moebius https://imgur.com/a/T9anJRs

One thing that helps is insuring that the raw @-code uses the same number of characters as the fixed/maximum length of the displayed string using fill characters (e.g. #'s) see https://wiki.synchro.net/custom:atcodes#formatting for an exmaple.

This works so long as the width of the string is less than or equal to the total length of the raw @-code. If you find an @-code where you'd prefer a shorter alternative alias, let me know and I'll see what I can do for ya.
--
digital man (rob)

This Is Spinal Tap quote #45:
I don't really think the end can be assessed as of itself as being the end Norco, CA WX: 85.0øF, 28.0% humidity, 8 mph W wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
---
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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Digital Man to Mindsurfer on Tue Oct 21 2025 15:06:24

Currently i am using Moebius for Linux to edit the ANS files. There is
IcyDraw, wich can handle MSG files directly (i guess), but it always is no
WYSIWYG editing as soon as you want to use @Codes, but guessing, measuring,
textediting afterwards.
Example: head.msg/head.ans IcyDraw/Moebius https://imgur.com/a/T9anJRs

One thing that helps is insuring that the raw @-code uses the same number of characters as the fixed/maximum length of the displayed string using fill characters (e.g. #'s) see https://wiki.synchro.net/custom:atcodes#formatting for an exmaple.

Ok. i am using something like that already, for shortening the Time (AT)TIME-L5(AT) for example. I was reading about the formatting features and will use em. the @CODE|R#######@ could also come in handy for longer strings.

This works so long as the width of the string is less than or equal to the total length of the raw @-code. If you find an @-code where you'd prefer a shorter alternative alias, let me know and I'll see what I can do for ya.

Thanks for the alternative short-code offer!
I guess editing the ansi WYSIWYG when using @codes can work in some cases but is limited.

The only thing that comes to my mind as a workaround, is to use placeholders with the correct length and a script to replace the placeholders with the @codes in the ANS file afterwards. for example ~~~1 ~~~~~~~~2 ~3 as placeholders, to be replaced with the @code-l4@ (~~~1) etc.
It would be a bit of work to prepare a script with all placeholders and their @code replacement, but one could still edit the ANS file WYSIWYG.

Well, in a perfect world the ANSI Editor would be able to use its own placeholders and memorize a number of sets of position + color + length + @codes to be saved in the final version of the Ansi.

ok, thanks for the help! i will experiment with the formatting features and maybe my own placeholders + script.

Mindsurfer

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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Mindsurfer to All on Tue Oct 21 2025 12:04 pm

is IcyDraw, wich can handle MSG files directly (i guess), but it
always is no WYSIWYG editing as soon as you want to use @Codes,
but guessing, measuring, textediting afterwards.

Is there a better way? A way to edit Ansi's WYSIWYG with @Codes
included?

you can use an ansi editor with ansimation mode and type in your @ codes
after you're done and then save it.

you could save your @ codes with their ansi positioning in a text file and cat it to the bottom of your completed .asc .msg or .ans file that's easy too. that's what i do but not everyone can be cool like me.
---
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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Mindsurfer to Digital Man on Wed Oct 22 2025 01:43 am

Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Digital Man to Mindsurfer on Tue Oct 21 2025 15:06:24

Currently i am using Moebius for Linux to edit the ANS files. There is
IcyDraw, wich can handle MSG files directly (i guess), but it always is no
WYSIWYG editing as soon as you want to use @Codes, but guessing, measuring,
textediting afterwards.
Example: head.msg/head.ans IcyDraw/Moebius https://imgur.com/a/T9anJRs

One thing that helps is insuring that the raw @-code uses the same number of characters as the fixed/maximum length of the displayed string using fill characters (e.g. #'s) see https://wiki.synchro.net/custom:atcodes#formatting for an exmaple.

Ok. i am using something like that already, for shortening the Time (AT)TIME-L5(AT) for example. I was reading about the formatting features and will use em. the @CODE|R#######@ could also come in handy for longer strings.

This works so long as the width of the string is less than or equal to the total length of the raw @-code. If you find an @-code where you'd prefer a shorter alternative alias, let me know and I'll see what I can do for ya.

Thanks for the alternative short-code offer!
I guess editing the ansi WYSIWYG when using @codes can work in some cases but is limited.

The only thing that comes to my mind as a workaround, is to use placeholders with the correct length and a script to replace the placeholders with the @codes in the ANS file afterwards. for example ~~~1 ~~~~~~~~2 ~3 as placeholders, to be replaced with the @code-l4@ (~~~1) etc.

So what I was suggesting was that the @-code itself can be the "placeholder" (so long as the @-code is the same length as the expanded string).
--
digital man (rob)

Sling Blade quote #10:
Morris: I stand on the hill, not for thrill, but for the breath of a fresh kill Norco, CA WX: 63.6øF, 81.0% humidity, 0 mph NW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
---
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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: MRO to Mindsurfer on Wed Oct 22 2025 00:36:42

Re: How do you edit msg files

is IcyDraw, wich can handle MSG files directly (i guess), but it always is
no WYSIWYG editing as soon as you want to use @Codes, but guessing,
measuring, textediting afterwards.

Is there a better way? A way to edit Ansi's WYSIWYG with @Codes included?

you can use an ansi editor with ansimation mode and type in your @ codes after you're done and then save it.

ok, i have to check that out. But you would have to keep a copy of the ANS file without the @codes ansimation, to be able to make changes to the layout later, right?

you could save your @ codes with their ansi positioning in a text file and cat it to the bottom of your completed .asc .msg or .ans file that's easy too. that's what i do but not everyone can be cool like me.

No WYSIWYG editing yet, but a really good compromise, as you can simply append it at the end after editing/saving the ANSI file.

Good idea! i will give it a try. Thanks for that!

Mindsurfer

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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Digital Man to Mindsurfer on Tue Oct 21 2025 22:55:44

So what I was suggesting was that the @-code itself can be the "placeholder" (so long as the @-code is the same length as the expanded string). --

Thank you. I got that.
So, not so good for displaying node number wich would be 1 digit only. Just as an example where it would not work, when there is not the space in the layout.

Short @codes like @NN@ would take 4+ chars in the layout display of the ansi editor. So that is the shortest it had to be to use @codes directly as the placeholder within the ansi layout. Maybe +1 empty space left and right of it, depending where it sits in the layout.

Everything that has some more characters in the expanded final display can be done with the recommended @code|R###@ without any further trickery.

So depending on the complexity and length of the respective @code output, i can choose between @code|R###@ for example, the positioning of the @codes via ansi esc sequence at the end of the layout. or a file containing the @codes with ansi esc sequence for positioning that i will merge to the layout ansi.

Mindsurfer

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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Mindsurfer to MRO on Wed Oct 22 2025 11:59 am

you can use an ansi editor with ansimation mode and type in your @ codes after you're done and then save it.

ok, i have to check that out. But you would have to keep a copy of
the ANS file without the @codes ansimation, to be able to make
changes to the layout later, right?

no, if you make changes you turn off ansimation mode. then you turn it on
and type in your @ codes. that will stop text being pushed over because
it's being put in after the reset of the ansi code.
you can use dosbox and thedraw for a good editor with ansi mode.

file and cat it to the bottom of your completed .asc .msg or .ans
file that's easy too. that's what i do but not everyone can be
cool like me.

No WYSIWYG editing yet, but a really good compromise, as you can
simply append it at the end after editing/saving the ANSI file.

all our ansi editors are wysiwyg. you need to understand what you are doing when you put an @ code in there you have something that can be big or small
and push text around. that's why rob suggested you use those @ codes with padding.

it's not complicated stuff, just use dosbox with thedraw like i said.
you can also do a lot of cool stuff with cursor positioning.
---
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El 21/10/25 a las 09:04, Mindsurfer (VERT/FUNTOPIA) escribi¢:

Hi there,

Yes i know you are supposed to convert your ANS file to MSG using the ans2asc utility. Thats ok. It works. I do that.
But if you add @Codes to your ANS file, you will quickly lose how the
layout will look like eventually. Or you will end up using a text editor afterwards, editing the ANS/MSG file to move stuff around and look at
the result, repeat that until the layout looks the way it is supposed to look.

Currently i am using Moebius for Linux to edit the ANS files. There is IcyDraw, wich can handle MSG files directly (i guess), but it always is
no WYSIWYG editing as soon as you want to use @Codes, but guessing, measuring, textediting afterwards.

Is there a better way? A way to edit Ansi's WYSIWYG with @Codes included?

Example: head.msg/head.ans IcyDraw/Moebius https://imgur.com/a/T9anJRs

Mindsurfer

I use syncdraw
---
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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Mindsurfer to Digital Man on Wed Oct 22 2025 12:24 pm

Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Digital Man to Mindsurfer on Tue Oct 21 2025 22:55:44

So what I was suggesting was that the @-code itself can be the "placeholder" (so long as the @-code is the same length as the expanded string). --

Thank you. I got that.
So, not so good for displaying node number wich would be 1 digit only. Just as an example where it would not work, when there is not the space in the layout.

2 digit node numbers are not uncommon and 3 is even possible, but I get your point. You won't ever have a 4 character/digit node number.

Short @codes like @NN@ would take 4+ chars in the layout display of the ansi editor. So that is the shortest it had to be to use @codes directly as the placeholder within the ansi layout. Maybe +1 empty space left and right of it, depending where it sits in the layout.

3 characters (e.g. @x@) is the short conceivable @-code, and you could have a 3 digit node number, at least theoretically, so maybe that'd work for that case.

Everything that has some more characters in the expanded final display can be done with the recommended @code|R###@ without any further trickery.

So depending on the complexity and length of the respective @code output, i can choose between @code|R###@ for example, the positioning of the @codes via ansi esc sequence at the end of the layout. or a file containing the @codes with ansi esc sequence for positioning that i will merge to the layout ansi.

Unfortunately, the ANSI cursor positioning trick isn't really going to work for non-ANSI terminals, so I wouldn't encourage it.
--
digital man (rob)

This Is Spinal Tap quote #24:
David St. Hubbins: You're a haughty one, saucy Jack.
Norco, CA WX: 70.9øF, 52.0% humidity, 4 mph SSW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs ---
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Re: Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Ragnarok to All on Wed Oct 22 2025 15:43:28

Is there a better way? A way to edit Ansi's WYSIWYG with @Codes included?

I use syncdraw

syncdraw started here with an libncurses error. not sure if i want to investigate how to fix that. maybe missing or incompatible library.

i actually had the opportunity to talk to Mike Krueger today. He has created MysticDraw (1994-96) wich syncdraw initially was based on.
He is working on his icy_tools wich consist of Icy_Draw, Icy_View, Icy_Play, Icy_Board and Icy_Term (when he is not distracted by playing games on his beefy gaming PC ;) as he told me).

Icy_Draw has, beside many other features, a Tag Tool, where you can define a "Tag" that consists of

- a Preview (wich will be shown as a placeholder in your ansi layout in the editor itself),
- the actual Replacement (your @code, @NODE-L1@ for example),
- Length (the output length of your @code, how much space it takes in your layout)
- Alignment (left, right, center),
- Placement ("inLine" or "With GotoXY"),
- Role (display Code or Hyperlink)
- and a switch for if you want to have the preview visible in your design or not)

Very nice and since he took the time today and provided a fix for the export to msg feature (wich had a bug or missing feature for exporting the @codes), i can now use Icy_Draw to export a msg file directly from the editor and don't need any further ans2asc converting. (i guess syncdraw can export to msg also)

So i got my wysiwyg editing including placeholder "Tags" wich hold the actual @codes.

Thank you Mike for live fixing that msg export feature and building an AppImage!
https://github.com/mkrueger/icy_tools
https://discord.gg/c7j2Z3ZN (Icy BBS Tools Discord)

Mindsurfer

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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Digital Man to Mindsurfer on Wed Oct 22 2025 12:35:44

Unfortunately, the ANSI cursor positioning trick isn't really going to work for non-ANSI terminals, so I wouldn't encourage it. --

Good to know! So for compatibility reasons it would be better to just "print" the @codes into the line itself and avoid the positioning via esc sequences at the end of the file.

But.. I have found an editor that does exactly what i need.
With icy_Draw i can define "Tags" that consist of the preview in the editor layout, the @code, length, alignment, method (inLine or GotoXY) etc.
So using the icy_Draw Tag Tool, it will look exactly as it will look in the BBS later within the editor. wysiwyg so to say :)

Icy_Draw still needed a little fix within the export to msg function, wich Mike was so kind to do this evening. So with the freshly build AppImage, Icy_Draw now does exactly what I originally envisioned when I began exploring the possible options for this task. =)

Thanks for all explaining and helping out!

Mindsurfer

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El 22/10/25 a las 23:09, Mindsurfer (VERT/FUNTOPIA) escribi¢:

Re: Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Ragnarok to All on Wed Oct 22 2025 15:43:28

Is there a better way? A way to edit Ansi's WYSIWYG with @Codes included?

I use syncdraw

syncdraw started here with an libncurses error. not sure if i want to investigate how to fix that. maybe missing or incompatible library.

i actually had the opportunity to talk to Mike Krueger today. He has
created MysticDraw (1994-96) wich syncdraw initially was based on.
He is working on his icy_tools wich consist of Icy_Draw, Icy_View,
Icy_Play, Icy_Board and Icy_Term (when he is not distracted by playing
games on his beefy gaming PC ;) as he told me).
Icy_Draw has, beside many other features, a Tag Tool, where you can
define a "Tag" that consists of
- a Preview (wich will be shown as a placeholder in your ansi layout in the editor itself), - the actual Replacement (your @code, @NODE-L1@ for example),
- Length (the output length of your @code, how much space it takes in
your layout)
- Alignment (left, right, center),
- Placement ("inLine" or "With GotoXY"),
- Role (display Code or Hyperlink)
- and a switch for if you want to have the preview visible in your
design or not)

Very nice and since he took the time today and provided a fix for the
export to msg feature (wich had a bug or missing feature for exporting
the @codes), i can now use Icy_Draw to export a msg file directly from
the editor and don't need any further ans2asc converting. (i guess
syncdraw can export to msg also)

yes I used icy tools are very good

For syncdram, you want to use sdl instead of curses. Not is the best
tool but It work for my

Just clone sbbs repo and build, maybe you must verify that -dev
libraries are installed on your system.

Saludos!
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Re: Re: How do you edit msg f
By: Mindsurfer to Ragnarok on Thu Oct 23 2025 02:09 am

I use syncdraw

syncdraw started here with an libncurses error. not sure if i want to investigate how to fix that. maybe missing or incompatible library.

Generally it should only start in curses mode if there wasn't the xlib-dev package (or whatever your distro calls it).

SyncDraw uses the same output library as the Synchronet tools like scfg (and SyncTERM), so if SyncDraw isn't working, other Synchronet stuff will break too.

I am curious what the actual error was though.
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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Mindsurfer to Digital Man on Thu Oct 23 2025 02:37 am

Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Digital Man to Mindsurfer on Wed Oct 22 2025 12:35:44

Unfortunately, the ANSI cursor positioning trick isn't really going
to work for non-ANSI terminals, so I wouldn't encourage it. --

but do we want non ansi terminals connecting to our bbses?
i dont
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Re: Re: How do you edit msg f
By: Ragnarok to All on Wed Oct 22 2025 22:49:18

yes I used icy tools are very good

For syncdram, you want to use sdl instead of curses. Not is the best tool but It work for my

Just clone sbbs repo and build, maybe you must verify that -dev libraries are installed on your system.

yep, the prebuild binaries didn't work, but when i compiled it myself, the resulting syncdraw binary works now!

Mindsurfer

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Re: Re: How do you edit msg f
By: Deuce to Mindsurfer on Thu Oct 23 2025 03:45:50

syncdraw started here with an libncurses error. not sure if i want to
investigate how to fix that. maybe missing or incompatible library.

Generally it should only start in curses mode if there wasn't the xlib-dev package (or whatever your distro calls it).

SyncDraw uses the same output library as the Synchronet tools like scfg (and SyncTERM), so if SyncDraw isn't working, other Synchronet stuff will break too.

I am curious what the actual error was though.

when downloading the syncdraw binaries i got this error

./syncdraw: error while loading shared libraries: libncurses.so.5: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

but when i cloned the repository and compiled syncdraw from source via make, it just works perfectly fine.

Mindsurfer

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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: MRO to Mindsurfer on Thu Oct 23 2025 00:22:21

Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Mindsurfer to Digital Man on Thu Oct 23 2025 02:37 am

Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Digital Man to Mindsurfer on Wed Oct 22 2025 12:35:44

Unfortunately, the ANSI cursor positioning trick isn't really going to
work for non-ANSI terminals, so I wouldn't encourage it. --

but do we want non ansi terminals connecting to our bbses? i dont

well, i haven't really thought that through. I guess thats a decision every sysop has to make for him/herself at one point. to break the backwards compability or not. That would mean, if you want to have any kind of ansi animation, that would be problematic for non-ansi terminal users?

what do you think would come out if we would create a statistic for non-Ansi/Ansi Terminal use? Who would actually want to or have to use a non-Ansi terminal?

Mindsurfer

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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Mindsurfer to MRO on Thu Oct 23 2025 11:33 am

every sysop has to make for him/herself at one point. to break the
backwards compability or not. That would mean, if you want to have
any kind of ansi animation, that would be problematic for non-ansi
terminal users?

what do you think would come out if we would create a statistic
for non-Ansi/Ansi Terminal use? Who would actually want to or have
to use a non-Ansi terminal?

Mindsurfer

you're overthinking it. fuck those guys with no ansi terminals.

You can also just make a file to show ansi users and one where it doesnt.

Most likely those non ansi terminal users are bots hitting your system.
In your logon screen put in a link for syncterm and other terminal clients so real people can get a client that supports ansi.
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Re: Re: How do you edit msg f
By: Mindsurfer to Deuce on Thu Oct 23 2025 11:25 am

./syncdraw: error while loading shared libraries: libncurses.so.5: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

Ah. Yeah, no two Linux distros are the same. :D

Curious where you download the binaries from... was it the Gitlab pipeline, or the SyncDraw homepage (such as it is)?
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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Mindsurfer to MRO on Thu Oct 23 2025 11:33 am

what do you think would come out if we would create a statistic for non-Ansi/Ansi Terminal use? Who would actually want to or have to use a non-Ansi terminal?

Retro computer character sets like PETSCII will be non-ANSI, and Synchronet supports PETSCII... that's the most likely one I can think of off-hand.
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Re: Re: How do you edit msg f
By: Deuce to Mindsurfer on Thu Oct 23 2025 13:27:56

./syncdraw: error while loading shared libraries: libncurses.so.5: cannot
open shared object file: No such file or directory

Ah. Yeah, no two Linux distros are the same. :D

Curious where you download the binaries from... was it the Gitlab pipeline, or the SyncDraw homepage (such as it is)?

i think it was this one
https://syncdraw.bbsdev.net/syncdraw-linux.tgz

Mindsurfer

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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Deuce to Mindsurfer on Thu Oct 23 2025 13:29:43

what do you think would come out if we would create a statistic for
non-Ansi/Ansi Terminal use? Who would actually want to or have to use a
non-Ansi terminal?

Retro computer character sets like PETSCII will be non-ANSI, and Synchronet supports PETSCII... that's the most likely one I can think of off-hand.

yep, synchronet (devs) has to maintain that compatibility, because it is part of the feature set.. A sysop can decide if he/she wants to kick compatibility and support Ansi only. 2 different perspectives

For now i keep up the compatibility until i decide otherwise =)

but it is extra effort as a sysop, that you do for a very small sub-group of an already small group. so.. i'll see.

or you offer an extra command shell in your BBS, just for the non-Ansi guys and keep on going full Ansi with your default command shell.


Mindsurfer

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Re: How do you edit msg files
By: Mindsurfer to MRO on Thu Oct 23 2025 11:33 am

well, i haven't really thought that through. I guess thats a decision every sysop has to make for him/herself at one point. to break the backwards compability or not. That would mean, if you want to have any kind of ansi animation, that would be problematic for non-ansi terminal users?

Unless you're using Ctrl-A codes or some other form of abstraction, yes, it's problematic for non-ANSI users.

what do you think would come out if we would create a statistic for non-Ansi/Ansi Terminal use? Who would actually want to or have to use a non-Ansi terminal?

PETSCII terminals are pretty widely used and I think Nelgin and Deuce are working on some BBC Micro terminal support. These are 2 examples of non-ANSI terminals that user actually use. There's more: ATASCII, VT52, ... but Synchronet does not (yet) support them.
--
digital man (rob)

Rush quote #55:
He'd like a lover's wings to fly on, to a tropic isle of Avalon .. Digital Man Norco, CA WX: 60.9øF, 78.0% humidity, 3 mph W wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
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Re: Re: How do you edit msg f
By: Mindsurfer to Deuce on Thu Oct 23 2025 05:43 pm

Curious where you download the binaries from... was it the Gitlab pipeline, or the SyncDraw homepage (such as it is)?

i think it was this one
https://syncdraw.bbsdev.net/syncdraw-linux.tgz

Cool, I should really update that page and fix the nightly updates... it looks like they may be stale.
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